CAP 34 - Part 1 - Concept Assessment

Status
Not open for further replies.

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
I am very, very, very, very, very skeptical of both Binding Band and Grip Claw. There's a tremendous amount of pokemon with partial trapping moves, from Whirlpool to Magma Storm, and yet I cannot think of a single example across any gen where these items are main-set viable.

I am also of the same opinion for the "hit by attack of type X, get boost Y" items, eg Cell Battery, Snowball, because there's 17 ways to be attacked that do literally nothing. Weakness Policy is also arguably quite narrow but at the very least it has a lot more activation conditions due to mons typically being weak to more than one typing.

EDIT:
I'd also like to raise the possibility of ending this stage with a Top 3 set of items after a vote, and going into ability with them in mind. There's some items that are definitely pro-concept in that they're definitely underused, and definitely harmful to the CAP process because they constrain ability or moves too heavily. Wide Lens, Scope Lens are the two biggest ones because of how heavily they constrain moves and ability respectively.
 
Last edited:
Last minute post, but I also wanted to support Focus Lens/Razor Claw for the potential it has in sets similar to Kingdra. Moves like Draco Meteor or Overheat can be spammed without consequence after a Focus Energy because the guaranteed critical hit will ignore the stat drop. This makes it really nice to wallbreak with, as it ignores any defensive boosts, screens, and can get boosted by abilities to monstrous power.
 

dex

Hard as Vince Carter’s knee cartilage is
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus
I present the slate:
  • Air Balloon - We have seen Air Balloon in use multiple times throughout Pokemon's history, but this generation might be its best with there being so many good Ground-types in the metagame. While it may sometimes rely on the surprise factor, Pokemon like Heatran show that it is possible to preserve Air Balloon for long periods, and Pokemon like Blaziken demonstrate that the free turn Air Balloon provides can be pivotal. Also, Amamama demonstrated how Air Balloon can be a great means of skill expression, letting the player get into the minigame of keeping it intact. Air Balloon is only minorly restrictive on typing and leaves the rest of the process wide open, though there could be valid concerns that the item is too prevalent to be pro-concept.
  • Assault Vest - The debate surrounding Assault Vest is not about its strength, it is about whether or not it is pro-concept. You could design a CAP to prefer Assault Vest over all other items, but is it for us? snake made an excellent point that Assault Vest is rarely a primary item, making it perhaps more pro-concept than it may seem. Assault Vest is not restrictive on any part of the process, though Ability may be impacted by it.
  • Eject Pack - Eject Pack provides a surprising amount of depth for a single-use item. SHSP made a great post about how turning a Pokemon that is not normally a pivot into a one-time pivot can be instrumental in winning momentum and getting into a good position, which can be enough to win games in today's metagame. We've also all seen the work a strong pivoting move can do (Scizor and Tapu Koko come to mind), demonstrating that Eject Pack's effect is something most teams want. Eject Pack is minorly restrictive on typing (you need a move to activate it) but otherwise keeps the process pretty clean, though there is some question about its power level.
  • Focus Sash - Focus Sash, like Assault Vest, has a very strong effect and has seen use in the past. While it may be too popular for your tastes, Focus Sash has proven cases of use to base the process on. Amamama discussed how Focus Sash rewards smart play and has a few examples in the current meta of how it can be used. That being said, Abilities that synergize with the item are less than abundant, though it would not be too hard to guarantee the item is run.
  • Throat Spray - Throat Spray, among single-use items, may just be the best from a consistency point of view. a fairy pointed out that despite Throat Spray being single use and despite it being expected from some Pokemon, the item still excels. Generation 8's Meteor Beam teams proved that boosting while launching off a powerful attack is quite strong, and then Archaludon went and showed us that again with current generation rain. One point in Throat Spray's favor is the relative cornucopia of sound-based moves, especially bolstered by recent additions, keeping our future stages pretty open, though the role a Throat Spray Pokemon inhabits is somewhat limited.
There's the slate! I know this is a smaller slate than usual for something like this, but we need to consider not only if an item is uncommon enough to fulfill the concept but also strong enough to outcompete the big items. I still think we have quite a set of diverse options to choose from here. I want to remind y'all that whatever item we choose will need to be usually chosen over the Big Three (Choice items, Leftovers, and Heavy-Duty Boots) and also "tier 2" stuff like Life Orb. Keep that in mind when thinking about which of these items is the best for our future process. I also wanted to quickly go over why some popular stuff did not get slated:
The big one to discuss is Weakness Policy. I originally had it on the slate, but concerns over how it messes with Ability got to me, and the fact that it is something you have to have your opponent proc makes it a hard sell as a main set item. Flame Orb, Iron Ball, and other Trick-reliant items did not make the slate due to just how much they rely on the surprise factor to operate. These items become much worse when your opponent knows to actively play around them. Additionally, basing the process around Trick leaves CAP 34 vulnerable to preferring a Choice item, which provides value before Trick, or railroads ability in the case of the Orbs. Resist berries were originally on the slate too but were knocked off because they too are very surprise-reliant but also don't have that strong of an effect, calling into question if they can sustain main set usage. Scope Lens was left off the slate despite some support because of worries that it would railroad ability. There are just too few potential ways to ensure Scope Lens is used to make for a good process, and I cannot in good faith slate it when we have an entire Ability stage to get through! Terrain seeds, while not as bad as Scope Lens, do restrict the Ability stage quite a bit. While there are a few recent examples of how Terrain seeds have been used in varied ways, it turns CAP 34's process into one about maximizing Terrain value, which I think is too much of a departure from our intended concept. Custap Berry saw some late backing, but it is an inconsistent strategy that calls for very particular Abilities. I understand that Gholdengo shows how it can be used outside of its previous iterations, but Gholdengo is such a unique Pokemon (and one that has been used as an example for most of these items) that I find it difficult to use as a basis for slating something. Wide Lens essentially mandates Population Bomb and a Normal typing to go with it. It is not worth it for just Triple Axel or other inaccurate moves. No Pokemon (Weavile, which has run other items than boots, included) has ever preferred Wide Lens over any other offensive item to my knowledge outside of Die Maus. This is not great for process health. Rocky Helmet was given some thought, but enough people found it to be uninteresting or even anti-concept that it was easy to leave off. I found Metronome and Expert Belt to be too easily overshadowed to make for a successful project. As others have said, Protective Pads and Punching Glove are just not in the right metagame to succeed. Big Root, Grip Claw, and Binding Band were all mentioned a bit, but none of them are anywhere near the power level we need. Finally, Kee and Maranga Berry were left off due to them being very low-power single-use items that suffer a lot when an opponent expects them and are likely to be dropped in favor of better items.
If y'all need more explanation on why something did or did not make it on, feel free to ask me on Discord. Now, with that all done, let's vote!
 

dex

Hard as Vince Carter’s knee cartilage is
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a CAP Contributor Alumnus
And we're back. Throat Spray is our item of choice (note: not a Choice item. I am incredibly funny), and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited to see what we do with it. With that, I have a couple questions that we gotta get through before we get into the fun stuff (anything besides more Concept Assessment).

1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
 
Last edited:

a fairy

is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Community Leader
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
Well, Throat Spray is a single-boost item, tuned to Special Attack. Kommo-o uses it to add to whatever ridiculous omniboost-style move it gets, and Toxcitiry uses it to power itself up further while preparing to break or sweep. Presumably, it's a niche option for just about anything commonly running Boomburst, as a surprise "oh it powered up".

Throat Spray doesn't just activate on attacking moves, though. There are a number of fun sound-based status moves, and while we may not be able to Throat Spray our Sing, the exploration of using a status move to activate Throat Spray and then move forward with non-sound based attacks is interesting.

Must we rely on damage dealing sound moves to activate our ability - even, must we rely on a sound based move as our primary means of dealing damage? Perhaps our sound based move is a secondary presence in our statblock, a status move or coverage or the not-spammed move of choice. Boomburst and Overdrive, we know those, and those are the Queen of the chess set that is a Pokemon's presence in battle. That could be a new space to explore for Throat Spray - the boost it gives is not to specifically sound moves, but rather Special Attack.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
I think that this question is in many ways "why would a 'mon be okay with not having an item?", on top of the specifics of Throat Spray itself compared to say, Specs or Weakness Policy or what have you. Throat Spray certainly wasn't our only single-use item in discussion, so it's no surprise that we can find many examples of Pokemon being happy to throw off their item and maintain their competitive integrity.

There isn't really an item like Throat Spray. A boost, at desired and entirely in your own control, is not something you often see in an item - berries require low HP, Weakness Policy required being hit by a potentially dangerous move, Choice items demand you select one move and one move only. Throat Spray has the limitations of single use, which when combined with the opt-in nature of its activation creates a unique "break glass when ready" opportunity that reminds me of Z-Moves or Gen 5 Type Gems. What made those things successful? How can we apply those benefits to Throat Spray in our design process?


3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
I don't feel particularly strongly about this, in either direction. I genuinely haven't considered any further changes to the formula aside the item selection being done first. I think that in either direction, we may struggle with some level of hedging our bets - for example, Liquid Voice fans may find themselves in both directions working on assumptions. There may be arguments for actually adjusting our approach, but I'm not sure I am coming up with any off the top of my head. Unless I see some that convince me, my gut instinct would be to leave the process order as it would be normally.
 

Wulfanator

Clefable's wish came true!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?

I actually think neither should be first. I believe we should have a mini defining moves stage to determine what move we'd like Throat Spray to be activated by. This knowledge would be more informative for both Typing and Ability. Knowing the activation move lets us more easily consider move-ability synergy. Typing appreciates it because it cuts out issues related to polljumping and allows users to be more direct with their rationale behind typing suggestions.
 
I know everyone is thinking of making this a Clangorous Soul sweeper, and while that will probably be very effective, it’s pretty explored. There are a decent amount of more defensive sound-based moves like Alluring voice, Psychic Noise, and Roar. Although I’m not sure how effective it would be, it would be quite interesting to explore making a Mon that creates / forces swaps in order to sweep.
 

Brambane

protect the wetlands
is a Contributor Alumnus
I think we should do Defining Moves part 1 first to establish:

1) What are the good activating moves for Throat Spray, and
2) Which are better suited for STAB, coverage, or both

Other than that, this should be a sweeper pretty simply. I don't think you make a wallbreaker with Throat Spray that isn't already strong enough to break without Throat Spray. And if it is a wallbreaker that absolutely needs to activate Throat Spray to break, well that doesn't seem quite up to snuff to the competition in a metagame as higher power as Gen 9.

However, a sweeper that can switch between moves that can afford to run 4 attacking moves to max out its potential coverage in a Tera metagame? That I could invest in.
 

Ehmcee

A Spoopy Ghost
is a Pre-Contributor
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?

There's a very obvious path here in the form of a special setup sweeper, but one which would not have special attack boosting moves, with the exception of Clangorous Soul if we decide to build around it. Toxtricity comes to mind by using Shift Gear alongside two different sound moves in Boomburst and Overdrive, having multiple different ways to activate it's throat spray.

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
I'd like to +1 Wulfanator 's proposition to have a Defining Move Stage before both the Typing and Ability stage, not polljumping with this current item is incredibly difficult because Throat Spray's viability as an item is directly tied to what Sound Move we decide to use. I think we'd greatly benefit by deciding a specific sound move (or sound moves), and then target lead both our typing and ability stages with that information.
 
1. Throat Spray strongly implies special sweeper. Single-use items generally imply offensive roles, and ones that boost an offensive stat even more so. Maybe this mon can have some kind of mid-game breaking role (maybe there's even a way to whittle things down early game before activating your item late game?), but I'm specifying sweeper rather than wallbreaker becasue if we try to build this mon to be a wallbreaker, there's good reason to question if we'd ever use Throat Spray over Specs. Even Toxtricity, a mon that always uses sound-based moves, where almost every move in its kit has an immunity, runs exclusively specs on wallbreaking sets. I'm not really seeing other routes here but that might be a failure of imagination on my part.

2. Throat Spray is mostly unique because a number of sound-based moves have interesting and unique properties but don't necessarily see a lot of use on their own or have poor distribution. It's also a consumable, which are fun items to build around. I think encouraging Throat Spray isn't too hard. If we make a specially-based sweeper with powerful sound-based moves that's not super hazard-weak so as to prefer boots, we're 90% of the way there, and there are several in-practice examples of this item seeing use on pokemon's common sets. Excelling with the item probably means making sure that we exert a lot of pressure when we're on the field, since we're likely only getting one chance to exert a threat.

3. I'm down with Wulf's idea. I could still see ability before typing since a number of abilities interact directly with our item/likely kit in a way that will impact what we do on the field pretty heavily.
 
To make this easy, here are all the sound moves available:
1708646965149.png


1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
The immediate draw of throat spray is a special attacker that wants to swap between its spammable moves while still maintaining the power boost. Toxtricity enjoys picking between overdrive or boomburst without the worry of being forced out from a ground/ghost pivot. It also works very well with setup moves. Clanging scales is the obvious here, but the fact tox runs (sometimes) shift gear + throat to patch both speed and boost spatk is really fun. I think messing around with submoptimal boosting helped by throat would make it less of a bait set that relies on more consistent specs users.

Of course, we have plenty of other cool moves to explore. Something about roar forcing your counter out while giving you an immediate boost, putting your opponent at lots of pressure and gives you more chances to snowball. Alluring voice is really funny, but I'm not sure how viable LOL. I also like snarl and the dynamic of denying your foe their spatk while raising yours, we have quite a few strong special attackers and something that can stop them from snowballing while also having strong pressure would be good, perhaps a bulky offense?

But I think the big one I'd love to try out is heal bell. I have no clue where to start, but it's such an interesting deviation from the sweeper-ish nature of all other moves that I'd be a shame to not at least have a conversation about it.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
I think throat spray's main appeal is the control you have. With most single use items, you'll activate it as you switch in or as you make the foe activate it and then you need to make use of that bonus as much as you can before you lose it (see booster energy, terrain seeds). Throat spray lets you pop your nuke item whenever you want, even though most of its users still default to "do it as soon as you enter the field". I think this level of control would be interesting to explore, but it does rely on cap34 needing good non-sound moves to use in the meantime. pivoting, boosting, other stab/coverage etc. Would also require a bulkier mon to sustain coming back and forth holding the throat spray and not be so chipped it dies before popping it off.

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
I agree with going over defining moves first. I think we need to decide how many sound moves we'll be dealing with, alongside choosing them. Could be just one, but could be two like tox or even three.
 

ausma

token smogon furry
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
OU Forum Leader
I am going to +1 having Defining Moves first, and then back that even further by suggesting that we then move into Ability before Typing on top of that. I believe Throat Spray is a very kit-oriented item, in the sense that the way it activates and is best accentuated are defined by the relative strength and synergy of options that the user has at their disposal. Throat Spray is activated through a move, and the move category (sound-based moves) as well as types of moves in general directly interact with abilities, which both greatly inform Typing. Typing should be intuitive with its sound-based moves and its abilities instead of the other way around as something that augments their strength and makes them more tantalizing to opt for in tandem with one another. This is accentuated even more by the fact that most people will choose their item last as something to complement the role of the Pokemon they choose.

Imagine looking in the builder to see CAP 34 for the first time, which possesses standout sound moves that align well with its typing (maybe they're great coverage, have utility that aligns well with its role, or is STAB boosted), making them a natural fit, and then notice abilities that complement that move in practice that make said move even more attractive of a pick. If you see something have, say, Punk Rock, and have easy-to-use, solid sound moves, Throat Spray as an item should likely come to mind. That should be the thought pipeline we aim for: enabling the raw intuition to choose Throat Spray as your item when you have predetermined the role you have for CAP 34 based on its abilities, stats, and primary attacking moves. Typing does encourage that intuition further through obvious synergies, but is not something that you first look to as a reason to use a niche suborder of moves. Realistically, it's moves and abilities, with typing to act as a factor to ground and encourage using them.

As the Typing TL I would definitely say that it would be a big help to the discussion and in establishing a direction for the stage if we know what moves we want to hone in on and what types of move-to-ability interactions are most relevant when considering our sound move(s) of choice.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
As a one-time use item, Throat Spray will definitely excel in the late-game cleaner role, where it doesn't care that Throat Spray is only one-time use - because Throat Spray CAP34 will just end the game after the use. As a consequence, this means that CAP34 could also function decently as an early-game breaker for something else to clean up on a more offensive teamstyle, where its goal is to switch in, get the Throat Spray boost, keep breaking until it faints, and allow another offensive Pokemon to switch in for free. The totality of these two molds is what we should be going for to make Throat Spray CAP34's best item.

The role we shouldn't go for is the one that wants to pivot in, get a hit off, and pivot out - that's much more along the lines of Boots or Choice Specs, not Throat Spray. There's a shortlist of abilities that definitely incentivize Throat Spray and the sweeping role over Boots and Choice Specs, so ability will be pivotal in making Throat Spray the best item. Additionally, there are moves that we can disallow whose inclusion would otherwise encourage Boots and Choice Specs, but that's much further down the road.
 
What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
The two most common Throat Spray users (Toxtrictity and Kommo-O) are Pokemon designed around the idea of sound moves and their sets reflect this. They all share a unique trait related to sound (Punk Rock + Overdrive and Clangorous Soul (even has Soundproof for flavor)). In the context of the metagame, they’re all usually sweepers in some capacity (Shift Gear Tox, Clang Soul Kommo-O) and utilize Throat Spray to further boost that SpA stat. I think the additional niche of being a Knock Off absorber once setting up is super beneficial.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
One of the most interesting qualities of Throat Spray is its one time use. It has a lot of applications that leads to the user needing to stay on the field for as long as possible before switching out. I think the best way to make this excelis to overload with sound “stuff.” Kommo-O is one of the best examples of this we can look at, using its OU set

Kommo-o @ Throat Spray
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Tera Type: Normal
Timid Nature
- Clangorous Soul
- Clanging Scales
- Boomburst
- Flamethrower

Kommo-O here uses THREE sound moves, I think making sure that a large majority of the “main” set is dedicated to the concept of sound, as that is the best way to make Throat Spray function AND be the preferred item.

+1 on defining moves first
 

Samirsin

✧Rey de los Snom✧
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
:snom:
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
Regarding unexplored territory, but really unexplored territory there is the use of Throat Spray + Status Sound Moves, as they also activate it.
1708665019466.png
All of those moves also trigger Throat Spray :throat spray:. Very uncommon, yes, but it is worth mentioning. Roar + Throat Spray for phazing and boosting sounds interesting, for example, although the design space is quite limited.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
The easiest and most comprehensible path to follow is offensive sound moves:
1708665294258.png
Which ones are unexplored? Sparkling Aria, Eerie Spell for example, even Snore, those are some that are worth exploring in my opinion. CAP 34 can rely on them to boost + create some special effects.
How do we ensure it is used on CAP 34? We don't give it a boosting attack, so it has to rely on Throat Spray for it to hit hard, making sure that in the Stat stage some benchmarks are only possible after the Throat Spray boost, however, in moves and typing it has to have the need of wanting to hit many types at once without having to swap, making it so that specs is not a reliable option.

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
Supporting the defining moves poll jump.
 
Last edited:

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
CSoul Kommo-o definitely stands out to me as the most recognizable Throat Spray user, just because getting +2 Special Attack +1 everything else in a single turn is absolutely worth it should Kommo get in safely. I'm not sure how much we learn about Throat Spray from this case, however, as it's essentially just used to soup-up an already power. The more unique applications are using non-boosting moves for the sake of boosting, and there's plenty of options there to choose from. Getting a damage boost just from using one of our attacks (likely STAB) is quite efficient, even if the boost comes later.

One thing we should be mindful about is how much of our set is sound-based. We could go the route of having multiple sound moves to activate Spray, or only a single one: both have their own merits. The former means that we don't have to force ourselves to use a particular move to get the boost, which is ideal if our CAP wants to come in and fight to the bitter end. If activation is limited to one move, however, we have much more control over when we get to use our item, instead of being forced to proc it early.

In either case, you want this Pokemon to be the one that's winning the game for you. A strong single-use item like this lends itself more to threatening a sweep than trying to punch holes: if the goal was breaking teams, we'd much rather have a more permanent item. Throat Spray has a strong effect, but it's one we need to maximize our use of, because we're unlikely to have that same power again. Kinda blends Setup Sweeper and Cleaner together, both are doing relatively the same thing except one needs a turn to set up while the other needs the team sufficiently weakened. Throat Spray doesn't necessarily need that turn of setup so long as our best click is a sound move. And in spite of what I said before, there may be room for a Wallbreaker, or even Stallbreaker with the right options. You'd need to lean heavily on threatening Throat Spray without necessarily committing to it, so I predict these two would prefer running a single sound move instead of multiple.
 
2. How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?

I think the biggest challenge of this concept is not designing a Pokemon that can use Throat Spray effectively but rather a Pokemon that wants to use Throat Spray. For this reason, I think its toolkit should actively encourage losing its item. Of course, this is a bit restrictive on the ability, as there is really only one viable way to do this seeing as there are no physical sound moves to synergize with Acrobatics.
 
Last edited:
What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
Throat Spray as a primary item is clearly designed and best used as a sweeping and cleaning tool. A wallbreaker that wants Spray over Specs but doesn’t have sweeping qualities seems awkward to build.
What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
Imo there are three notable qualities, that can make Throat Spray preferable to more traditional special boosting like CM and Nasty Plot.
1. Burst Power: Throat Spray activating through moves, that aren’t (necessarily) boosting moves, can create turns with much more momentum compared to standard boosting moves, which can be a momentum sap, as they allow in defensive answers unscathed.
It shares this characteristic with Power Herb Meteor Beam, which allows the user to chip or heavily damage a switch in and boost at the same time. (Though Throat Spray boosts after hitting the move, whileMeteor Beam boosts before hitting)
2. Freeing up space in the Moveset: Not having to run a. Using a move to boost Power, can allow a Throat spray user, to run Coverage, Utility or moves that boost other stats instead of an attack boosting move.
Examples that work similarly are Skeledirge, which doesn’t use Throat Spray really but still can boost its power by attacking and thus has the ability to run utility moves - in its case recovery and Wisp - or Coverage and Celesteela, which runs Autotomize as a boosting move and uses the combination of meteor Beam and Beast Boosts auto boost to increase power.
3. Making the user less susceptible to Knock Off: Losing an item has the upside of directly cutting the power of Knock Off, which is especially useful for a sweeper, that would be weak to physical dark moves.

Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
I agree with the sentiment others have voiced, that doing a preliminary defining moves section first is probably best, to work out which boosting options are desirable and which might not be.
I don’t think we need to limit ourselves to only one option, but since most of these are Attacking moves knowing the best options before moving to typing is prudent.
 

Kiwi

free فلسطين
is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Top Artistis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Haven't really done this before, but hopefully I can be of some help or contribution!

1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokémon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
Throat spray seems to be heavily used for, well, its purpose in raising the special attack stat. That's pretty obvious. Amamama also mentioned that throat spray saves space for one move. I think that move could be used to raise some other stat or set up some kind of status. Afaik, Pokémon that have had throat spray usually have a decent speed stat, enough to keep them ahead of half the mons they're competing with (See Kommo-o).

The only other new way I can see this working is through a pivot Pokémon. Yes, sounds sort of counterintuitive considering the item, but let's look at some of the non-conventional throat spray moves: Noble Roar, Roar, Snarl... You switch this Pokémon in and weaken/disorient your opponent's team while enhancing your own Pokémon. I see this in a variety of ways:
If it were to use roar, boosting its special attack stat and forcing another Pokémon out, which it may have an advantage over from its other moves while also supporting stealth rock
Noble roar weakens the opponent while simultaneously enhancing the mon. This can help with setting up the throat spray while also making a switch-in safer once the throat spray is used
Not sure how throat spray works 100%, but I assume it activates before a move connects. Through snarl, it can once again weaken the opponent along with a much stronger attack. This move will also be reliable later if the mon is forced to switch out by a threat

Not that any of these are as simple as a super powered kommo-o but I think it can be fun!

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?

What makes throat spray unique is that it has a good potential versatility that's yet to be explored by actual mons. I think there's a wide variety of plays that can be incorporated with throat spray, rather than a super strong, speed boosted special monster ripping through everything. My aforementioned answer would definitely use a unique quality of throat spray BUT I'm not sure how well it would excel since I'm no Pokémon expert. I do think it could work, but someone with more understanding would need to piece it together
 
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
I think no matter what, getting the most out of Throat Spray will involve being a sweeper of some sort, and notable users of Throat Spray that we've seen so far have all done this. Since you only get one +1 proc per game, I think this is a mon that wants to get in, immediately become a threat while maintaining momentum by boosting while clicking a sound move, and then dish out a bunch of damage before dying or going back out. As others have suggested, having the initial Spatk stat or traits (eg pivoting) characteristic of a breaker is going to make us less reliant on our chosen item, and ending up with another Toxtricity-like mon that only uses Throat Spray kinda sometimes is falling short of the concept.
Exploring what a Throat Spray user could do with any of the utility/status sound moves is tempting, but I don't think any of the options that lead away from a sweeping role are strong enough here.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
Besides a couple specific applications of Power Herb, I think Throat Spray is the only (special) attack-boosting item that's fully in your control, which lets us reliably activate it right away or whenever we want. For CAP34 to use it as much as possible, the simplest build we can do is one that really wants that +1 Spatk boost but has no other way to get it (or to copy what Kommo-o does with Clangorous Soul). Choice Specs gives the same power boost, so to best leverage Throat Spray will also involve having strong coverage options that we'll be stronger for being able to switch between, rather than just relying on one spammable STAB (...unless we're using Clangorous Soul).

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
I support the idea to have some sort of preliminary Defining Moves stage before either of these, since it will strongly inform our typing. Typing after Ability may be good too but that order probably doesn't matter as much.
 
2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
Wanted to hop in to voice what I thought was an important distinction. To me, the clearest similarity to throat spray is booster energy- a limited stat boost that is easy to activate but doesn't lock your moves. If we want to make throat spray stand out, I think leveraging the unique advantage it has over booster energy will go a long ways. Booster energy often makes positioning awkward, as your sweeper is forced to choose between remain in the back at a time where its important to check a threat/provide other utility, or wasting its chance to sweep effectively be burning its buff before the its checks have been broken. Throat spray still lets you take advantage of a boost in power without a limitation in flexibility for endgame sweeps, and lets you make better use of your pokemon mid-game. A typing or ability that lets it force out specific meta threats very well early/mid-game without great cost to its health (such as a typing with an immunity to let it pivot it on an immune move early game) as well as a strong non-sound move to preserve throat spray would give the mon and its item a clear niche and theoretical advantage over booster energy mons
 
What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?

Throat Spray very obviously implies a special sweeper. It being a single-use stat boost has powerful implications on the right Pokemon, and has solid synergy with multiple different abilities.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?

Throat Spray is very similar to power Herb in the sense that you use a move to get a single boost so you can sweep. However, Throat Spray is more versatile because it's not limited to just Meteor Beam way power Herb is but instead can be activated with any sound move. We can ensure Throat Spray gets used through an ability that benefits the loss of an item, most likely Unburden but there has been some talk of Magician as well.



3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?

I do not think it matters much, since typing and ability don't necessarily influence each other too much. We need to be sure our typing has solid offensive coverage and has vast implications on our moves since sound moves are required on our set, which are a very specific set of moves.
 
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
There is the obvious Special Sweeper a la Kommo-o, but I would like to see if we could use the other sound properties such as bypassing substitute. It also can basically choose when it wants to sweep, so that’s cool.
2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
You can choose when to sweep just by using the move, so we can design it so it could do helpful things for it’s team before trying to sweep.
3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?

#DefiningMovesFirstfor34

Just helps us decide what sound moves we should focus on.
 
But I think the big one I'd love to try out is heal bell. I have no clue where to start, but it's such an interesting deviation from the sweeper-ish nature of all other moves that I'd be a shame to not at least have a conversation about it.
I think choosing a move to specifically activate throat spray that doesn't help the user much and doesn't cause any damage to the opponent doesn't really do much to encourage the use of throat spray at all. It's counterproductive to heal bell if you want to save the boost for later, and it makes for much more complicated play to use efficiently. The chip damage from a damaging sound move is more ideal imo, a mon that's already damaged is gonna be in a lot more danger in the face of +1 special attack than a mon that's facing a heal bell into an attack. That's much more in-line with what a mon using throat spray is trying to do.

I think throat spray's main appeal is the control you have. With most single use items, you'll activate it as you switch in or as you make the foe activate it and then you need to make use of that bonus as much as you can before you lose it (see booster energy, terrain seeds). Throat spray lets you pop your nuke item whenever you want, even though most of its users still default to "do it as soon as you enter the field". I think this level of control would be interesting to explore, but it does rely on cap34 needing good non-sound moves to use in the meantime. pivoting, boosting, other stab/coverage etc. Would also require a bulkier mon to sustain coming back and forth holding the throat spray and not be so chipped it dies before popping it off.
I think this style of play is ultimately what we should explore. If the mon can be sufficiently threatening with its non-sound moves and the player can choose when to activate the boost, it encourages the use of throat spray to begin with, and I think we stand to learn the most from the product.
 
1. What sort of roles does Throat Spray inspire in Pokemon? Are there any roles that have not been explored in the context of Throat Spray that may be worth pursuing?
I will echo everyone and say that Throat Spray makes me think special sweeper. I will say that two unique Throat Spray users that haven't been mentioned are SS ZU Accelgor, that combined Throat Spray STAB Bug Buzz with Unburden, and SV RU Yanmega, which uses Speed Boost in tandem with Bug Buzz to boost. It seems that all of the viable Throat Spray users are either (1) capable of boosting their speed with special attack (Accelgor, Toxtricity, Yanmega) or are (2) bulky enough to stay in (Ursaluna, Skeledirge, Sylveon) or (3) are Kommo-o. I feel like a lot of the bulkier Throat Spray users are pretty well-explored (albeit in VGC, not OU), so the speed boosters might be more interesting. The important part here is to ensure that Specs is not a better option, as has happened with most viable Throat Spray users. Most of the fast mons/speed boosters are built as endgame cleaners, so they are meant to be preserved until they can sweep, making switching out unnecessary. Bulky Throat Spray users are meant to be positioned into a place where they force out an opponent and then continuously dish out huge damage.

Amamama also pointed out that Throat Spray often functions similarly to Meteor Beam + Power Herb. This combo was widely used by Nihilego and Eternatus as fast sweepers who used a one-time nuke to help boost, and by Celesteela, who enjoyed the great coverage into opposing Fire-types and could capitalize on the boost to snowball with Beast Boost and Autotomize. Nihilego could stay in by snowballing boosts, and Eternatus and Celesteela are bulky enough to stay in after boosting.

2. What makes Throat Spray unique? How can we leverage Throat Spray's unique qualities to not only ensure that it gets used on CAP 34 but also that CAP 34 excels with it?
Throat Spray's unique quality over Specs or Life Orb is first and foremost that it is consumable. This would allow CAP 34 to take less damage from Knock Off or act as a Knock Off absorber after using its item. Additionally, this is very polljumpy, but not holding an item could allow CAP 34 to utilize the abilities Magician or Unburden, the first of which is not utilized significantly by any mons. This is not to say that CAP 34 should use this ability; it's just relevant to the item's consumability.

Additionally, Throat Spray's drawback, compared to Specs/Life Orb, is that once the boost is activated, it is lost upon switching out. This implies that CAP 34 would be best used either as a mid-game wallbreaker or an end-game sweeper that stays in until it accomplishes its goal.

Throat Spray also has the unique quality that it simultaneously gives a boost while using a move. This allows it to open up a moveslot that would normally be used for boosting to deal damage.

3. Should we entertain swapping the Ability and Typing stages (I.E. going directly to Ability first and then Typing)? Why?
Defining moves first!!!!!!!! Otherwise, I think that Typing makes sense to explore first, as it's very relevant to the moves we end up choosing to use with Throat Spray.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top